In the beginning it was joy. Interview with the theologian Matthew Fox

Interview by Silvia Lanzi*, volunteer of the Gionata project, of March 18, 2011

Matthew Fox. Forget the American actor protagonist of the TV show. The Matthew Fox who gave me the interview that follows is a theologian, whose book "Original Blessing" (now translated into Italian with the title "In the beginning it was joy") caused a kind of earthquake in the Catholic world (for which he, Dominican friar, was expelled from the order by the then Cardinal Ratzinger).
Now, after twenty years, the text has been translated into Italian, by the publisher Fazi - first book of a "field of flowers" series directed by Elido Fazi and Vito Mancuso.

What will happen in the Italian theological-cultural panorama? Will it have the same impact that the original edition had? Maybe it's a bit too early to say it. It is sure that this publication is absolutely unique in the field of religious literature.
The author kindly granted me an interview in which he gives a taste of the content of the book. Which is certainly, at least in some ways, countercurrent. But which is also lucid, clear and intelligent and has the not indifferent value to shake the reader and induce him to think.

She formulates the doctrine of pantenteism. What does it mean? That God is a creator and demiurge? What differs from the traditional conception? And, how is God immanent and at the same time creator? Does the dichotomy spirit/matter fall?

Panenteism means that all things are in god And god Is in all things. it is Different from theism, for which there is a god Who is outside, in the sky, and which is separated from us. With the term pantenteism, a name is given to the divine presence, To The holy spirit, which flows through all things and in everything.
We are like fish in the water: the water is in fish and fish are in the water. This is how the great mystics speak of the grace and the Spirit of God. It is the Christ of the Gospel of John who says: "I am in you and you in me".
It is that phrase of the book of the acts of the apostles: "God is the one in which we live, move and exist". It is the immanence of God who also respects the transcendence of God; This is the difference from pantheism that limits God to what already exists. Pantacentism allows God to be free and present beyond our words and our worlds.
Pantenteism is the mystical mode of seeing our relationship with the divine. To mention two examples: Meister Eckhart says that people who see God outside things are "ignorant". Matilde of Magdeburg says: "The day of my spiritual awakening was the one in which I saw and knew that God is in all things and all things are in God." Amen.
The dichotomy between spirit and matter must be overcome. It is the basis of so much dualism and hatred for the earth, for our bodies, for sexuality, for women. It was Agostino who said that the spirit is all that is not a matter, a statement that is the epitome of dualistic thought.

Tommaso d'Aquino instead struggled against Platonism and said that the spirit is the momentum that is in everything, the vitality of the grass stem, or the horse, or anything. This is the end of dualism. If only the Church had followed Tommaso instead of Agostino ...
Today science helps us to dissolve our dualisms. For example, the physicist David Bohm said the matter is "contracted light". This is very important.
In my study of the spiritual traditions of the world (published in the volume One River, Many Wells) I discovered that the metaphor of light is the most universal to indicate the divinity: in Egypt, in Buddhism ("Be light for yourself"), in the 'Judaism ("Because light!"), In Christianity ("I am the light of the world").
We know that for each molecule of light that is meat, that is, matter, in the universe there are other billions of light molecules that are not a matter. We, who are embodied light, are rare in the universe!
Matter is not an obstacle to the spirit, but it is a particular expression. We have to stop putting the material and meat in the pillory. I wrote about this with greater depth in my book Sum of the Spirit, Blessings of the Flesh

"In the beginning it was joy" it really seems a Copernican revolution of faith. But how much of the original faith - Catholic or at least Christian - remains in the work?

The doctrine of original sin is absolutely not a doctrine that is part of the original Catholic Christian faith. It was adopted by Agostino first at the end of the quarter, approximately when the Church inherited the Roman Empire to manage. No Jew had ever heard of original sin, including Jesus. There is no in the Bible.
It is a very useful doctrine to support the empire because it questions people regarding their very existence, confuses them about their right to existence, and prepares them to accept domain relationships. It is a tool of shame, and controls people through shame. So it is very patriarchal and nourishes patriarchy.
He also puts doubts in the head of oppressed groups: women, gays, lesbians, color people, etc. etc. Contributes to self -hatred and the internalization of oppression. It was also re -evaluated by the consumption company. Consumer capitalism feeds on the ideology of original sin, which says: "You have what counts within you, so you have to buy something to be in place. Buy something to get out of shame! "
On the contrary, the original blessing is the opposite of theology based on shame. We are all noble born, we have a history of 13.7 thousand years of years. We all have a wonderful work to be done in this life.

As for my work, I spent forty years to recover the oldest spiritual tradition of the Bible, the spirituality of creation, and the wonderful tradition of our ancestors, the great mystics and prophets of the Bingen, Meister Eckhart, Tommaso d ' Aquino, Francesco d'Assisi, Dante, Giuliana di Norwich and many others who are part of the tradition of the original blessing (Ildegarda calls it "original wisdom").
I also developed a pedagogy that allows us to bring to light the mystical or the prophet/spiritual warrior, which is in everyone and each one. The two identities go together. We are all called to be of mystics, that is, of lovers of life, and the prophets, that is, of the defenders of justice.

A well -known Bible scholar, John Dominic Crossan, recently wrote that for San Paolo (the first author of the Bible Christian books) you cannot be Christian without being of mystics. Instead of inventing a Christolaria we are called to be "in Christ" and become "small Christs".
Bible scholars have now achieved consensus: Jesus as a historical figure derives from the tradition of wisdom, which is the mystical tradition that focuses on the creation. We should renew our Christian roots returning to the roots that inspired Jesus.

The tradition of wisdom is based on nature, it is feminist (wisdom is feminine for the Bible and in the rest of the world), it is cosmic, honoring creativity, is the friend of the prophets and therefore struggle for social and ecological justice e He is not afraid of "having fun" in the universe just as wisdom does in the book of the proverbs in chapter 7.

Let's talk about Vatican Post-Catholic Catholicism. Why does it affect a religious who, I believe, no longer recognize himself in Catholicism?

A historian defined Vatican II "the greatest religious event of the twentieth century". It is a scandal that the last two papacies have moved away from all the important decisions of Vatican II. This is what many wisdom people say in secret and that I say in public: that this papacy and the previous one are schismatic. A Pope and his Curia do not have the right to put aside the decisions taken by a valid Council of the Church.
How can an individual in good conscience entrust himself with the deliberate destruction of the theology of liberation and basic communities in Latin America, and of others engaged for social justice, and to say in agreement with the teachings of Vatican II?

The movements of the theology of liberation In Latin america were the incarnation of christianity closer to Christ in hundreds of years, and have been dismantled by the previous and current pope. as Well as the principle of collegiality that was married by Vatican II.
And deep ecumenism, and the appeal to sharing among the faiths for common social action. And the appeal for creative liturgical celebrations according to the various cultural expressions.

The current and previous papacy replaced Catholicism oriented towards justice with things such as the legionaries of Christ (whose founder not only was a pedophile, but admired the dictator Pinochet who assassinated about 700 people, many of whom are Catholic priests, Catholic Sisters and lay Catholics), the Opus Dei (whose founder was a sexist and a fascist who admired Hitler and whose canonization was pushed great), and communion and liberation (the Cardinal of Boston, Bernard Law, who moved a priest Pedophile from one place to another thus allowing him to attack more than 150 minors was the spokesman for communion and liberation in North America, and has now been awarded with a beautiful Roman basilica and is in charge of the Roman Curia to choose the candidates for the episcopate ).

The story will take a long time to forgive this steering on the right of the Catholic Church. The story is walking with great strides leaving behind the fascist patriarchs who attract religious leaders while the real followers of Christ are tortured and killed (Oscar Romero was between them) while operating for justice, defending the poor, the environment, rain forests and much more.
What can we say about a papacy that prohibits condoms in the era of AIDS and completely prohibits the control of births in the era of excessive growth of the population on this planet?
I am looking for a post-vatican Catholicism that it is a truly Catholic Christianity, that is, authentically universal, in the sense that honors the universe, the earth, to all creatures, and which respects the wonderful diversity of cultures and their multiple expressions of religion and celebration.
A Catholicism that encourages new forms of worship, which are often ancient forms such as dance and drums and new art forms such as rap, which can bring great beauty and energy to worship today.
I work on these new forms that we have called "cosmic mass" for 16 years now, since the Anglican Church has offered me religious asylum.
The results are wonderful and I recommend them to all those who want to make the worship alive again.

I like the idea taken from Chesterton of the "Semper Reformanda Ecclesia". In your opinion is it possible? Is the spirit really at work, or is it hampered by the hierarchy?

I think that the papacy present and the one spent devastated the Catholic Church so deeply and have given the shoulders to Vatican II so much that the Holy Spirit is telling us: "You have to start from the head".
Starting from the end in this new world in which so many religions weigh their feet every day and in which mother earth is so dangerous that all religions must simplify their message, travel lighter, and create real mystics (lovers) and the real prophets (spiritual warriors) to save the earth and our species with it.
Yes, the spirit is alive and very well, but it is not necessarily found within arid, frigid religious institutions, full of fear. The spirit is alive where people are alive. For this reason, understanding the Church as "people of God" and not as Curia and hierarchy is a threat to those who have reached the top of the scale of ecclesiastical power. It is also important to incorporate science and new cosmology in religious renewal and in the expansion of today's awareness. As well as the return of the female divine to balance the male sacred. The black Madonna is alive and she is fine too.
When the Pope John Paul II canceled Galileo's sentence (as if we were anxiously left for 450 years!) He said that religion should learn from the great mistake that the church did then. But he didn't learn anything. Let's take the example of homosexuality.
Just like the question of the earth that runs around the sun, it is a question in which science can instruct us. And science spoke, telling us that from 8 to 10 percent of each population it is homosexual. In addition, 464 other species have been identified with groups of homosexual individuals.
So the old superstition according to which homosexuality would be "unnatural" has proven incorrect. Tommaso d'Aquino, who obviously did not have the scientific knowledge on this topic that we have, however said that "an error regarding the creation leads to an error regarding God".
Those who humiliate homosexuals have not understood anything about the creation, and therefore have not understood anything about God. Nature needs sexual diversity. Otherwise why would many heterosexual parents give birth to homosexual children?
This Pope produced three controversy against homosexuals. These are horrible and cruel documents (and the previous Pope has affixed his signature out of two of these documents).
There is no scientific reference in these documents, but only references to the catechism written by Ratzinger himself. The Holy Spirit therefore operates a lot, but much beyond the womb boundaries of ecclesiastical prejudice and curial bureaucracies. Each movement for the rights of homosexuals or to reinvent technology on the basis of ecological principles is a work of the Holy Spirit. All movements in favor of justice are the work of the Holy Spirit.

In your opinion, just under 20 from the publication of his book, will the Italian edition have the same disruptive effect as the English one by triggering a new debate? And why an Italian edition so far from the original one?

I hope this book will impact in Italy, the motherland of so much brilliant wisdom in the history of the West. I don't know why it took 28 years to translate Original Blessing (the original title of "In the beginning was joy") in Italian, but I am happy that it happened.
Time is particularly propitious now to rekindle the debate and rethinking on what Christianity is, indeed for a global Renaissance from below that is so necessary so that our species can survive. I am very happy with the interest that you now express you Italians for my work. The spiritual tradition of creation is really very Italian: Francesco, Tommaso d'Aquino, Dante, Blessed Angelico, Leonardo, Michelangelo, Giordano Bruno, Puccini, Giovanni XXIII ... The list would never end.
With the current papacy, which is so seriously committed to controlling everything and is so afraid of women, theologians, the theology of liberation, creativity in worship, gays and lesbians, it is time that Italians join the debate and To the movement that, perhaps, will be able to overturn the tables of the Curial Merchants of the Temple (I meant, of the Basilica of St. Peter) as Jesus did. As the young people of Cairo recently did.
Do not need violence. But we need to indignation when Jesus' teachings are distorted in the name of ecclesiastical power. Would Jesus feel at home in the Vatican today? Would he be on the side of the fear that all the sexists and the homophobes have?
We let the Vatican remain the museum which is already in fact, and we go on with the spirit and teachings of Jesus, in union with the other Christians and with the non-Christians to save our species and the earth. It doesn't remain much time. Some people are called to operate outside the church to give birth to new forms; Other people must operate from the inside.

But we are all called to make our contribution, because we are all responsible adults, so that the religion of our grandchildren puts the earth more in the center, is more joyful, welcomes the female divine and the masculine sacred, is more acceptance towards everyone The lifestyles and the expressions of beauty through which we are at the service of each other, and not of the hierarchy.
In one of my recent books I share with my readers some brilliant thoughts of about 33 people of the Christian tradition, from Jesus to Thomas Berry. I am moved to see the wealth and courage of our tradition. For me it really makes sense to save all this from the building that goes on fire.
My new book will be released in May The Pope's War: How Ratzinger's Secret Crusade Imperled The Church and what can be saved (the Pope's war: how the secret crusade of Ratzinger has endangered the Church and what can be saved) .
In this book, in addition to investigating Ratzinger's life, his enemies and friends, I describe what face would have renewed Christianity, and how we could do to get there.
The imposition of silence to the Church with the condemnation of more than 97 theologians (among which I was also there, and whose names are listed in the appendix of my book), plus the coverage offered to pedophile priests from the hierarchy and the prizes conferred on the bishops who prefer to save the institution instead of saving the children, the request for 50,000 dollars to attend a private mass of the Pope (made by the Polish secretary of the previous Pope, now cardinal) ... what evidence we still need to see the Corruption that is today in the Catholic Church?

She compares herself to the New Luther. Why? do you really seem to have affected his work in both indelible and the german augustinian?

I did something similar to the one that Luther did: I hung my 95 theses on the door of the church of Wittenberg. I did it in Pentecost in 2005 as a response to the fact that the card.ratzinger had been self-elected pope (I knew him well since for twelve years he had attacked me and my work, despite the fact that an official committee of three Dominican theologians had approved my writings considering them "within the limits of tradition").
I invoke a new reform. In my book in New Reformation I make a comparison between Luther's time and our time. The invention of the press was what Luther motivated to reinvent theology and religious practice. Today we have the electronic media that give people the opportunity to communicate in a different, faster and more global way ever.
At the time of Luther there was a rebirth of biblical studies and the study of languages; Today the level of biblical studies and also that of historical and scientific studies is grandiose and can expand human consciousness (we also hope religious).
There are political movements and deep desires that put things in a new context, just as at that time the national feeling was being born.
And of course there is new corruption in institutional churches again. In Catholicism we have fleeing from the spirit and the letter of the Second Vatican Council, pedophilia and its coverage by the ecclesiastical hierarchies, the reduction to silence, the return of the Inquisition, the flirtation with fascism. In Protestantism a fatal boredom is widespread or there is the onset of fundamentalism.
I am part of a dear community made up of theologians and other spiritual leaders who push all religions to dirty their hands, to put spirituality before religion, to join other traditions of faith and science, to know and teach the treasures of the Notra tradition, to grow mystics and prophets, those warriors of the spirit we need for everyone's survival. If we read Luther, his 95 theses were really boring. They are all on the indulgences.
In all humility, my 95 theses are much more interesting because they deal with different topics, passing from "God is Mother and Father" (thesis 1), to "God as Father who punishes is not worthy of worship" (thesis 4) , to "Eros is a virtue that fights accidents" (thesis 82), to "loyalty and obedience are never greater virtues of consciousness and justice" (thesis 69), to "Jesus did not say Nothing on condoms, on birth control or homosexuality "(thesis 70), to" homophobia is a serious sin "(thesis 73).

* I thank Dr. Gianluigi Guglielmetto, Italian translator of the book, for the precious help given to me during the interview.

Matthew Fox, In the beginning was joy. Original blessing, Publisher Fazi, 2011, Pages 423
In the book it is on sale in all bookstores and also at Claudiana Library of Florence (10% discount and postal sending throughout Italy, only for the readers of Gionata.org)

Text also in english: Original Blessing. A Primer in Creation Spirituality