Sex and sin in the Catholic church according to Cardinal McElroy: “How can we move forward?”
Interview with Cardinal Robert McElroy* by Jesuitical podcast** published on the website of the Jesuit weekly America (United States) on February 3, 2023, freely translated by Giacomo Tessaro, third and final part
Zac Davis: In my opinion, we are in the classic prodigal son area. We all live this parable, and I think many of us in the Church are ready to be the big brother he says “Father, why don't you tell him about all the things he should have done, and should start doing, and also that the way he came home was wrong?”. I think that in the Church today there are many people who are always ready, under the pretext of proclaiming the truth, to tell others that they are always wrong.
Monsignor Robert McElroy: I had a professor of Holy Scripture who always said “When you read a parable, look at the character you don't like and see for yourself: you are really him”, and in fact many times I find myself in the position of the eldest son, so to speak “God, why don't you do something for that person?”. But that is not our role, and it is certainly not what Christ calls us to be or do.
Ashley McKinless: I think a very common fear, which I also share at times, is that, perhaps not by changing the doctrine, but by ceasing to consider certain rules untouchable, and instead emphasizing others, we might end up having to break our unity. On some truly fundamental issues, sexuality, the ordination of women, homosexual marriage, it seems that, in the long term, different positions cannot coexist. What would you say to those who fear that, by touching on certain very sensitive issues, we could arrive at that frightening thing that begins with S: a schism?
Monsignor Robert McElroy: I think there are a couple of points to analyze here. The first is that there is another word that is scary, and that is escape. Since we don't want to talk about inclusion, we are losing the younger generations. In my opinion it is clear that much of the flight of young people from the Church [is attributable] to the discomfort in dealing with [issues concerning] women and LGBT people in the context of the life of the Church. This is the first point.
Ross Douthat, commenting on the New York Times my article, he writes “We are heading towards a schism because both sides are convinced that it is a question of all or nothing, win or lose”. I don't think this is synodality, but rather its opposite. The beautiful thing about our local dialogues is that people who disagreed with each other intervened, shared their point of view in faith and drew energy and support from it, even though they continued to disagree. This is what we have to fight for. We don't have to make any leaps from here to there, it's a gradual thing, it's the gradual nature of the life of the Church. How can we move forward?
We must also be attentive to more traditional Catholics. In our dialogues the topic of the pre-conciliar Mass (which is often called the Tridentine Mass or Latin Mass) came up; many people attend it and feel hurt by the recent changes. We must exercise pastoral attention towards this issue. It's not a question of winning or losing, it's not what I write or someone else writes about inclusion that is the content we need to work on until 2024, otherwise we will fail. No, it's not like that.
We are a universal Church, and this is sometimes an easy and wonderful reality, sometimes a very hard one to live, but as a universal Church we will continue to pray and work, and we will come to some conclusion on these issues.
One of the things I think is not useful is to oppose the Synod, or to recommend excessive caution about it: many of such people do not want any change, and for them too it is a question of all or nothing. We ask ourselves where God wants to take us, and we must worry about these issues. We don't predict what conclusions we will adopt, but if we don't take seriously the issues that people have presented to us, and if we don't think about them in the light of the Church and the Gospel, then I think we will fail whatever conclusions we adopt.
Zac Davis: Are there things that are easy, that don't require a change in doctrine?
Monsignor Robert McElroy: For example, the role that women and lay people can have in running parishes. There are some articles of canon law that do not allow women and lay people to do certain things, for which however they may have great competence. It would be easy to change this, and it has nothing to do with doctrine. The Pope has recently taken steps in this direction by reforming the Curia, or the central administration of the Church, to allow those who are not bishops to be heads of the main Vatican departments, and this can certainly include women and lay people. This type of change can and should take place at every level of the Church, and I don't think there is very strong opposition, except through inertia, but a change of consciousness is still needed.
[Ordaining women to the] diaconate is more difficult, because it goes against a long tradition. Here's the big question: how often were women entrusted with the role of deaconess in the early Church? Many data support the hypothesis of deaconesses, so it is a different question than that of women priests, because it seems clear that there were women who had the role of deaconesses, and who were ordained through various ceremonies. It would therefore be easier to do so.
Ashley McKinless: You mentioned the role of women in the Church as an issue where there is less conflict, and where fewer rule changes are needed. When I think about inclusion, the other group often mentioned is Catholic LGBT people. I think that, first, there is very little agreement, in the United States and in the global Church, on how we should approach this group, and second, we define homosexuality as intrinsically disordered, and there is also the distinction, which you make in your article, between orientation and sexual acts. In this area, do you hope for a change in the language and discipline of the Church?
Monsignor Robert McElroy: As I wrote, for years I have felt that definition “intrinsically disordered” it was a disservice. The problem is that that expression in the Catechism it is used as a philosophical term, but for us, in our country, and indeed in most of the world, this disorder is understood as mental illness.
It's a terrible word, which should be expunged from the Catechism. On the distinction between acts and orientation, what I tried to say in the article is that God's acceptance of LGBT people, as well as that of the Church, should [not] be based on whether they are [sexually ] active or not; this should not determine whether to try to include them or not, deal with them or not, whether or not to consider them as people who struggle like us, with weaknesses, strengths and areas where they work well.
Not that the difference between acts and orientation does not matter, on the contrary, but it should not form the basis of our attitude towards LGBT people. We should rather say “We look at you, and we see people like us, people trying, in often difficult circumstances, to live life here, in this world, to live according to the Gospel, knowing that we fall, knowing that sometimes we fall over and over again into the same scope". This is what human nature is made of.
When I was a young priest I heard many confessions, and people said, “Oh, I'm mortified to confess the same sins over and over again.” We are like this, our personality has a rather rigid structure. This is the context in which I think we should consider the LGBT issue. The pastoral project we have here in San Diego consists (and it is certainly not easy) in ensuring that LGBT people are welcomed into the life of the Church like anyone else. So, how do we proceed?
It's difficult, we take one step after another, but this is my goal, and I really think that Christ would completely agree, that he would want every person to feel welcomed into the Church like anyone else, including every LGBT person with their family.
Zac Davis: One of the great fears I have about the Synod, now that we have done this great exercise of listening to people, [is that] it is one thing to ignore people and not ask their opinion at all, but it is quite another ask people their opinion, and then ignore it. So, if we go all the way, and on some issues there is very little unanimity, so much so that the two sides seem irreconcilable, I fear that we will lose entire generations, mine, but not only. Am I right to be afraid?
Monsignor Robert McElroy: Yes and no. Sometimes I have this fear too. Synodality is very widespread. The interesting thing about the documents produced around the world is that, with a few exceptions, they all indicate common themes, with the necessary differences.
It is a very important reality, but the question - how should we then put all this into action, in which places what people have said has produced a substantial difference in the life of the Church, in harmony with what has emerged, and yet the unity of the Church, doctrine and tradition are all things that are needed – I would say the reason I'm not as worried as I normally would be goes back to when I attended the Amazon Synod [in 2019].
There was a whole listening process there, and frankly, when I witnessed it I thought “Oh, give me grace. How can the nine million people who live in the Amazon region, most of whom are Catholic, be consulted and end up finding things in common, and then come up with a report that makes sense?”.
Yet they did it! When I went there, they had already carried out the consultation, and had drawn up a report, which was very good, and this report served as a framework for the Synod.
Many things then came out at the Synod: the question of deaconesses, then married priests, all these things. Many things have been done, many good things.
Not everything that was on the agenda has been done, but I have the feeling that those who participated in the Amazon synod process are aware that their input have been taken into consideration.
* Cardinal Robert W. McElroy, appointed auxiliary bishop of San Francisco in 2010, became bishop of San Diego in March 2015.
** Jesuitical is a podcasts created by the weekly's youngest lay editors America, and edited by Ashley McKinless and Zac Davis. Look for it on Twitter: @jesuiticalshow
Original text: Cardinal McElroy: Sex and sin need a new framework in the church